Pre-Wrath Rapture

7 Aug

I would like to say that my study in this area is ongoing, and certainly not exhaustive in it’s conclusion.  There are many areas that I am certain God has not revealed to me yet and therefore, I ask that no one takes my words of this, or any other post as dogmatic doctrine. God Bless:  So much Bible, so little time.

Many have arrived in their studies, or belief on the rapture as
being a pre -trib rescue from the “Great Tribulation” which Jesus has called a time of trouble like has never been on earth since it’s beginning.  In my personal studies of the Bible, I do not arrive at the same fly away before trouble comes rescue plan at all.  In fact it almost seems as if Jesus warns us in chapter 24 of  Matthew against any such thoughts by telling us that many will come in his name, and some even claiming to be Him. He then goes on to tell the disciples, (as if to say that some of us as Christians will still be here ) to not follow the teachings of those who claim such things, and to not bother going to see if they tell you “Christ” is in the desert or anywhere else. Why ?  Because Jesus’ return will not be that way at all.  (Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:) (Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory).

Based on the fact that the Anti-Christ will deceive many in those days, and the signs and wonders that must first be seen before Christ’ return,  It would seem that looking for Jesus to rescue us from the great tribulation period could actually be a very dangerous way of thinking.

Although, in a paraphrase,  if I may, we are not really to be occupied in trying to figure out when He is coming back, as Jesus has said He himself did not know the hour or the day, but only God the Father knew.  Instead of being occupied with when He is to return we are told to occupy and continue to work in the kingdom until His return.

Still we are admonished to continue to study the Bible, therefore I have found that a careful study, or even a casual reading of Matthew 24 where Jesus speaks to the disciples during His earthly ministry reveals much to us about this coming day known as “The Lords” day.   I would like to post some of Jesus’ words from Matthew 24 as we get further along in this study, and or discussion, but first I’d like for us to go into 1st Thessalonians, from where I believe most of the Pre-trib rapture believers have made the hypothesis of the “Pre-Trib” rapture into a theory.

How this came about is quite understandable however,  as I also think that the Thessalonians were under the same impression possibly from misreading the first  letter to them from Paul.  I  also believe that is one of the reasons why Paul wrote them the second letter that we know as  2nd Thessalonians.

Lets have a look: 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

For the most part this is the main place, Biblicaly speaking,  the pre- trib theory came to be a hypothesis at all. Even so, as I have said I think the Thessalonians even believed it that way at least until Paul’s second letter got to them:

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
As you see Paul mentions “A letter” from him.  I believe he had gotten word that they were teaching and preaching on this pre trib theory and he felt a need to send the second letter partly for that reason. Also we know that Jesus said in Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. As we recall the flood story it was the “wicked” who were carried away by the “Great Flood” waters, not the Children of God, also many other places and parables seem to be clear on the fact that the angels of God will come and pluck out the “Tares” from among the “Wheat” and not until  the “END” of the Harvest will it be done.

Some will say, but, what about Enoch , for as we read in : Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

This is a good point as we do see the Old Testament stories mirroring the New Testament prophesies and fulfillment’s.  However, and it could very well be some of the Church will be taken away for walking and living such Holy Lives.  I do not see the Bible or Jesus telling us this is what we are to be expecting, however, nor do I know very many people who are walking in such perfect adherence to Gods word that God would just come and take them away. I do know a few pastors etc, that have been called home who were walking seemingly that close, yet , as a group, or a church I know of none.

None the less,  I do not believe it is any coincidence that Matthew 24, and 2nd Thessalonians both mention that  the “Man of Perdition” (Daniel 11-12) (Revelation 13)..”Must be revealed before Jesus’ return.”  Seemingly both Jesus, and Paul, were telling the disciples that some of the church, whomever is alive at that time, would be there to see the abomination of desolation.

(2nd Thessalonians 2: 3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition:

Unless we have a Preterist view of the end times, and I do not,  we know this man of perdition to be revealed is the Anti-Christ, or in the Greek, the “Instead”of Christ, who is to be revealed after three and a half years of ruling the world from a “Peace” platform of political, economical,  and religious hierarchy as it was prophesied by Daniel from a dream  given to him from God by way of the Angel Gabriel.

Jesus, as we will see later in this study also said that the man of perdition  would have to be revealed before He himself comes back. Therefore, unless the “Preterist interpretation” of the 70 weeks being complete upon the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. is true, ( though I believe only 69, prophetic weeks, or 489 years were fulfilled at that time, ergo, the last (prophetic) year, which equates to “7 years” in prophetic calculations  is the “7 year” reign of the anti – Christ yet to come.) “Another topic for another time

Now, lets look at :  Acts 14:22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Now this of course was not referring to the Great Tribulation period, But, if the Disciples of Jesus’ earthly ministry were not saved from great tribulations..or even death for most of them, how can we expect to be scooped out of harms way? to fly away from danger:

Jesus put it all this way, and I will close after posting only some of Matthew 24 , and asking  you who have further revelation, or disagreement, please, regardless of your own belief on this matter feel welcome and free to post your reasonings:

Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. ( Jesus was speaking of the destruction that was to come in 70A.D. by the Romans.)  (24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?  What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)     24: 21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  24;22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24: 25 Behold, I have told you before. 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. ( This next one is a big clue)  

 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  24: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, andtheyshall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now, before I close this post I would like to ask you all to think of the Old Testament as the reflection of the New Testament, as many of you already know that it really is just that, a reflection, or a physical preface to the Spiritual things to come. Now with this fact in mind, lets look from the mirrored perspective of the Israelites in Egypt.

Throughout the Bible Egypt is typified as “Bondage” or , as a type of  our “Worldly” habitation before we are born into the family of God.  Israel is the modern day church, personified. ( This is not to say that physical Israel doesn’t still play a large role in Gods plan of the end time, in my opinion she does.)

( I do not believe in replacement theology)

Now in light of this, if we compare the Israelites deliverance from Egypt to our own deliverance as the church of Christ, we will see some striking  similarities:  In the book of Revelation “Jesus” is referred to as the “Lamb of God 29 times.

The Passover Lamb was the Lamb that the Israelites had to sacrifice, (Exodus 12) and then smear its blood of over their doors to be covered from the “Wrath” of God, that was to come unto Egypt by way of the 10 plagues. (Keeping in mind that this was taking place just before Moses lead them out of Egypt)

In Exodus7:19 we find that one of the plagues was  “Rivers turned  to Blood”

In Revelation 16:4 we find that the waters of the earth will also be turned to blood just before the coming of the Lord.

In Exodus 9:23 we read of the hail storms of the ten plagues in Egypt.

In Revelation 16:21 we read of the hail storm in Megeddo (End Times).

Exodus 10:12, Locust

Revelation 9:3-4 Locust as well for the coming tribulation period. (And they were told to not harm those on earth with the Seal of God in their foreheads)

The comparisons go on and on from here, but I will leave those for your personal studies. I believe ( SOME OF ) the Church will be in the earth until the last Trump has sounded, the 7th Trump.  1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What do all these comparisons of the Israelites Exodus from Egypt have to do with the “Exodus” of the church?

Well, it pretty much explains itself, however, you have to admit, the Israelites were still in Egypt during the time of  the “Great” Tribulation brought upon Egypt by God through Moses to convince Pharaoh to let  “My People Go”

Yet, they were covered in the Blood of the Lamb.

Not until  the Egyptians pursued the Israelites  (Compare to Satan’s last ditch effort of deception) did God part the Red Sea for the Israelites to pass through. Not till then did God’s wrath come crashing down onto the Egyptian Army. And not till then will we ‘”All see the Coming of Jesus” The sky will be parted, as the sea was parted.

Yes, I believe not in a Pre-Trib rapture, (at least not for all believers) but certainly I believe in the “Pre-Wrath” rapture for His children.

Once again, my study in this area is ongoing, and certainly not exhaustive in it’s conclusion…as there is the matter of comparing the Jewish Harvest of the Old Testament to the, at least 3 possible rapture scenarios of the New Testament.

1. The Barley Harvest…possibly the “Time of the Gentiles” or the church

2. The Wheat Harvest…Israel is usually refereed to as the Wheat. ( Possibly the 144,ooo, or Jewish Remnant)

3. The Grape Harvest, wherein some are refined,..and some are “Grapes of Wrath” which of course, Revelation even tells us of their destiny…spiritually speaking.

Ultimately, we can also not leave out the letters to the 7 churches where Jesus specifically tells some churches they will have to go through the great tribulation, and some He admonishes…repent…and He will keep them from i. And, also this nugget of Golden Revelation.

7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who knows?  Maybe the “Holiness”, sinless perfection teachers are onto to something after all.

But, I don’t count anyone out, whom…Seek the face of the Lord daily ..enduring till the end.

24 Responses to “Pre-Wrath Rapture”

  1. Jon August 8, 2009 at 1:46 am #

    [Great blog. I agree with you. Saw the following on the web. I should add that "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" on the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site is about the most shocking prophecy piece I have ever read!]

    PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS !

    How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He is now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. Since Jesus must personally participate in the rapture, and since He can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends, the rapture therefore cannot take place before the end of the trib! Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) (which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening – Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who would be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54)! (Will death be ended before or during the trib?) If anyone wonders how long pretrib rapturism has been taught, he or she can Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards.” Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 it was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Other Google articles throwing light on long-covered-up facts about the 178-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Revisers of Pretrib Rapture History,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Desperados” and “Deceiving and Being Deceived” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” which is available at Armageddon Books online. Just my two cents’ worth.

    • sonsothunder August 8, 2009 at 1:58 pm #

      Thank you for your Post Jon, God Bless you .. See you around

  2. Lyle E Cooper August 12, 2009 at 11:10 am #

    I will agree that there has been pretrib – no, I cannot use the word dishonesty – ignorance would be a better word. In places the general pre-trib thought has used VERY sloppy exegesis. Case in point: “after these things” and the rapture being found in Rev. 4:1. Even a beginning reader would NEVER come up with that idea. It would take someone with preconceived glasses on! This sloppy exegesis left room (a HUGE room) for others to come up with a different idea: enter prewrath!

    One place SO MANY miss it, is trying to establish doctrine from wrong scriptures. For example, would someone want to extablish New Testament salvation doctrine from Job? NO!!! A hundred times NO! Not even from the gospels!! No, for the church of today, our doctrine MUST come from the letters – and for the most part, from Paul! If we try to establish doctrine for the Gentile church (Paul) from the gospels, we will have faulty doctrine! The church that we are a part of was a mystery until Paul came along!! OUR faith must be in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ – NOT in the “gospel of the kingdom.” (See 1 Cor 15:1-5)

    So many make the same mistake with end time doctrine concerning the church. You must understand that there is end time doctrine for the Jews, AND end time doctrine for the church, and they cannot be mixed!!!

    Therefore, we cannot establish rapture doctrine from Matthew 24. Jesus is simply not talking to or about the church. He is speaking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age, i.e. “Jacob’s trouble” or the 70th week of Daniel. Anyone establishing church or rapture doctrine here will have false doctrine. I cannot put it any simpler.

    For rapture doctrine, there is only two places to go: either to Paul who receive the revelation of it, or to Revelation. However, Revelation is, for the most part – after chapter 3, about the 70th week, and is not related to the church. It is pointed directly to the Jews.

    But God, in His mercy, DID include things for the Gentile church. John was in heaven, and seeing heavenly things, so did not see the rapture: He only saw the church in heaven, after the rapture. He did not see the abomination, He only saw the 7th trumpet that was sounded when the abomination took place.

    As for 2 thes 2:

    2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

    It is clear that Paul did not know the source of this false doctrine that they were IN the day of the Lord – meaning that it had already begun. So Paul said, if it came from a prophecy, or from a letter supposed to have been written by Paul. Paul is NOT referring to His first letter. He don’t know where this wrong doctrine had come from, but he supposes it could have come from a forged letter.

    Paul’s main argument is not when the rapture comes, but that they could NOT be “in” the “day of the Lord” until the beast is revealed. And He cannot be revealed until whatever is restraining him is “taken out of the way.

    Lyle

    • sonsothunder August 12, 2009 at 4:30 pm #

      Hey Lyle,
      Well, I’m assuming that you were commenting just now on the post/Info by “Jon” that he said he got from another site seeing as how I really am not following much of what you are trying to say here.
      I am certain of course that you know what you are saying, however, just from our conversation last night on the other site. I left you a few other post responding to your last post to me there However: I will post them here for you however, as this is probably where we wil lbe doing our discussions.
      GOD BLESS
      sonsothunder

    • Lyle E Cooper August 12, 2009 at 4:34 pm #

      Lyle E Cooper said:
      It seems that you too have been deceived by doctrines of demons. I can assure you, Paul most definitely beleived in a pre-trib rapture. God Himself belives in a pre-trib rapture. The bible teaches a pretrib rapture. But one must take off preconceived glasses to see it.

      You can be sure, the devil is behind this doctrine of devils: you see, Jesus is coming for those that are looking for his coming. If the devil can deceive one into thinking that they will see anything else first, then they will miss the rapture and fact the beast, just as they believe. The devil knows that some will fall, and take the mark, and be doomed. And many will be forced to lose their head. The devil will enjoy this – as he has done it time after time in history.

      God is a perfect gentleman, and will allow you to believe what you choose. But if you are not looking for His coming, you will not hear the trumpet, and will miss the rapture.

      Lyle

      • sonsothunder August 12, 2009 at 4:39 pm #

        Lyle, I would love to see the documentation other than 1st Thess. 4:16 that would even give the impression that Paul was talking about a PRE-TRIB rapture, Pre-Wrath Yes, Pre Trib.. Not from my studies (1 Thessalonians 5:9
        For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,) Of course, there was the 2nd Thess 2:1-3 where it would seem that Paul was possibly even correcting those whom had took his first letter out of context, and were looking for the pre trib rapture..for he tells them to not be soon shaken,,, not even by words from a “Letter” from him.. possibly the previous letter he had sent… 1st Thess, but goes on to tell them not to be lead astray.. but that the man of perdition must first be revealed before the “Great day of the Lord” will come.. and as I am sure you know, according to the prophecy given to Daniel by God through Gabriel, that will be at least 3 and a half years into the Anti-Christ’s reign on earth. Jesus also tells the disciples the same thing in Matthew 24 .. that not only will the man of perdition have to be first revealed, but, also goes on to say”When you see theses things” as if some of the Christians will be there to see it” and then goes on to say Immediatly After the Tribulation…etc.
        I have recently posted a blog on my site called “Pre-Wrath Rapture.. I would love to see your comments on it ..After you trully concider it’s scripturaly traced outline. But, please do bring Scripture and verses.
        GOD BLESS
        sonsothunder

      • sonsothunder August 12, 2009 at 4:49 pm #

        Oh. and P.S. Lyle,
        You mentioned that if one were not looking for His returning they will not hear the Trumpet…
        1corrinthians 15:52 I believe it is, states that it will be the LAST trump, and as you probably already know, after the 7th or Last Trump..comes the “7″ Bowls of “Wrath” Jesus’ words..”Immediatly After”
        If the disciples who walked with Christ were not rescued from death, and tribulation by some fly away great escape, how on earth can I expect to be ?

        sonsothunder // August 11, 2009 at 6:22 pm

        Yeah Jd,
        I feel ya on the “Elect the Real Christian” campagne trail crowd.. But, I also am very aware of the times and seasons given to us in the Bible. I believe the Bible gives more detailed end time accounts of what we are to truly expect (thereby encourageing us to walk out our sermons) than to ever fall into some “Who will save our Planet” Rubber tree fairy tale belief. I could be wrong of course, but until the HolySpirit awakens me to the unlikely reality that the Preterist view that JESUS’ revelation warnings were only for that generation and or disciples who walked with Him on His earthly ministry, and that all of the things written about “Prophetically” in Ezekial , Daniel, Zehphaniah, and Revelation, have already all taken place in 70 A.D…Well, I must continue to believe that what those Prophecies tell us will happen.
        I am not certain yet if that is where you are speaking from, although, I do feel that you and I share in the same burden for the lost..who will face the “Saddest” day in History, unless we as the true church of Christ can somehow help to show them that Jesus is real in our lives. And for the same reasons as “Jesus Wept” .. I believe I feel your tears and heart felt concern for the “Dieing World” as I put it, and the book of Revelation has put it. A New Heaven and a New Earth… that much I believe is inevitable.. though, I share your concern for those claiming to be flying away, and can’t wait till Jesus swoops down and catches us up up and away from those poor souls who ..really, we should be “Dieing” to share JESUS with.
        GOD BLESS
        sonsothunder

        Lyle E Cooper // August 11, 2009 at 6:53 pm

        Sonofthunder wrote,
        “You mentioned that if one were not looking for His returning they will not hear the Trumpet…
        1corrinthians 15:52 I believe it is, states that it will be the LAST trump, and as you probably already know, after the 7th or Last Trump..comes the “7″ Bowls of “Wrath” Jesus’ words..”Immediatly After”
        If the disciples who walked with Christ were not rescued from death, and tribulation by some fly away great escape, how on earth can I exspect to be ?

        It is a great myth that the “last trump” of 1 Cor. 15 must be the 7th trump or Revelation. I certainly does not have to be, and truly is not. For example, if Paul had in mind the feast of trumpets, which has many trumpet calls during that feast, there is a “last trump” of that particular feast. Therefore, “last trump” could mean any last trump of any series. Since Paul was not explicit, then neither can we be.

        However, a student of Revelation knows well that the rapture is NOT associated with the 7th trumpet of Revelation, but comes before ANY of the Revelation’s 7 trumpets.

        Does the bible teach that there was or would be a “catching away” whenever there was trouble, then you might have a point. But God never even hinted at such a thing. A good time would have been when Antiochus was on the rampage in Israel, or when Titus was slowing starving those in Jerusalem, or when Hitler was killing the millions of Jews. There was no catching away then, because it was not in the plan of God to do so. However, we know from Paul’s writing that a catching away IS in the plan of God some time in our future. When? We can ascertain the timing of the rapture from scripture, if we remove all preconceived glasses and come with a blank slate to the Holy Spirit, who was sent to teach. However, He will not override false doctrine, if we are in any way holding onto it.

        If I could suggest a few questions, I would first find the exact midpoint of the 70th week in Revelation. Words spoken to me by the Holy Spirit were that it was “clearly marked.” I asked Him how I would find it, and He answered: “whenever I mentioned an event that will start at the midpoint of the week and go to the end, I always included the 3 1/2 year time period. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.”

        Once you find the exact midpoint, and how it is “marked,” you can then find the beginning and end of the 70th week in Revelation. I can assure you, this will change your end time thinking.

        Next, consider what Matthew wrote: “the ground did quake………..and the graves were opened.”

        What is this telling us? This verse sets a precident: that when there is a resurrection of the long dead, there WILL be an earthquake.

        At the rapture, or immediately preceeding it, there will be a resurrection of the long dead – some dead for almost 2000 years. As the Holy Spirit brings the atoms together that used to make up those bodies, it will cause a GREAT shaking! (Some atoms may be a 100 miles away, or hundreds of feet deep.)

        So, where is the first earthquake in Revelation?

        Next, study the vision of the thone room in chapters 4 and 5. Ask yourself: why was Jesus not seen in the throne room, in a vision shown to John in about 95 AD? Stephen saw Him many years before this. There are many scriptures telling is that He went to be at the right hand of the Father.

        Next, ask yourself why “no man was found” in a vision given to John in 95 AD?

        Why was the Holy Spirit IN the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He went up, He would send the Holy Spirit down.

        Answer these questions correctly, and your theories of Revelation will change.

        Lyle

        Lyle E Cooper // August 11, 2009 at 7:20 pm

        Sonofthunder wrote:
        “.. but that the man of perdition must first be revealed before the “Great day of the Lord” will come.. and as I am sure you know, according to the prophecy given to Daniel by God through Gabriel, that will be at least 3 and a half years into the Anti-Christ’s reign on earth. Jesus also tells the disciples the same thing in Matthew 24 .. that not only will the man of perdition have to be first revealed, but, also goes on to say”When you see theses things” as if some of the Christians will be there to see it” and then goes on to say Immediatly After the Tribulation…etc.”

        That is not at all Paul’s intended meaning of 2 thes. 2. His point is that “Now you know what withholdeth…” HOW will we know? Because He just told us, but coded it so that any Romans reading it would be clueless. So He left this hint, “now you know.” He told us clearly that whatever or whoever was doing the restraining or holding down, would be “taken out of the way.” Well, he told us “Now you know…” So we must back up verse by verse and find what will be “taken out of the way.”

        We find this in verse 3.

        GEneva Bible:
        3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,

        What day shall not come? We can guess “the day of the Lord” but even that is unclear in this passage. what is clear is that this is the ONLY VERSE were there is anything “taken out of the way.”

        Therefore, I am convinced that Pauls’ real meaning was that the rapture MUST take place first, before the Day of the Lord can come. Revelation backs this up.

        I disagree on your theory of where the “Day of the Lord” begins in Revelation. It is quite clear that it begins with the 7th seal, that “Marks” the beginning of both the 70th week of Daniel AND the Day of the Lord.

        Jesus is not addressing the church in Matthew 24. And He is speaking of His coming on the white horse, as we see in Revelation 19. Of couse the beast will have come by that time. His 42 months will be OVER by that time. But the rapture will have happened over 7 years before.

        Why must we read into gathering the elect and think this must be speaking of the rapture? The old testament tells us that the Jews (Hebrews) will be gathered in one day. I think this verse is in reference to them, not to us. Again, who is the Olivet discourse pointed to? The Gentile church had not yet been revealed. (Unless Paul’s “mystery” was not really a mystery.) Who will be there to see these things? First, all those living in Judea that must flee when the see the abomination!! Next, there will be millions of people turn to Jesus when the know that they have missed the rapture.

        Lyle

        Lyle E Cooper // August 11, 2009 at 7:40 pm

        Sonofthunder,

        Are you referring to prewrathrapture.com?

        If so, which article?

        I will make another commment: Rosanthal paid a tremendous price, and if true were know, he did not have to. However, he did accurately identify the rapture as the great crowd too large to number!! However, at that time, at least to him, the begining of the 70th week was a mystery. It does NOT start with the first seal. That is another pretrib myth. (I guess a prewrath myth also.) But we can be very thankful for the truth that Rosenthal did bring out. Indeed, prewrath IS truth: the rapture IS prewrath. But it is also pre-70th week. Because God’s wrath begins with the 70th week, which begins with the 7th seal.

        Lyle

        sonsothunder // August 11, 2009 at 9:31 pm

        I am sorry, I just can’t follow your logic, Lyle, as far as the “Last” trump spoken of by Paul in 1Cor. 15:52 being a Myth of any kind, or that he could have been talking about anything other than the “Last” Trump of the Revelation of Jesus, as the entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians was written about the Death Burial and Resurection of not only Christ but His followers.
        And as far as Paul writting in a code to try and fool the Romans about something like the time of the Rapture? Then we would have to assume that Paul wrote 1 verse out of 13 books in code, where he was otherwise resolute in his boldness and zeal for preaching the truth about the Gospel in which he was adamant in professing that he was unashamed of.
        As far as our prophetic time lines, coming down from the 69th year in Babylonian captivity, to the 1/2 way point of the of being…very close to the 3 and a half years of the Anti-Christ rule, or very close to the “Middle” of the week I believe you said: Which, I find hard to believe the Holy Spirit would deal in “very close” increments, Although, I would agree on your time line calculation thus far, However, this would tend to make you more of a Mid -Trib subscriber than a Pre Trib would it not?
        On which, I would almost be inclined to agree with you on as well…except, for the Exodus comparisons:

        Egypt, being the Bondage, or typified “World”
        Israel being Gods Children
        Pharoah being Satan
        The Passover Lamb= as you know Jesus is mentioned 29 times as the Lamb of God in Revelation Exodus 12 being a great precursory discription of the Gospel, ..the fact that the 10 plagues many of which are listed as the same plagues to come onto the earth during the Tribulation period, and yet through all of that ..untill the time of Gods Wrath which “Split” the Red Sea to allow the children of God to escape just as the “Wrath” of God closed in on the “Egyptians” or the World as it were: .. Where were the children of God during all of the plagues up until the time of the Wrath of God? They were still in Egypt, only covered in the blood of the Lamb.
        I’m not dogmatic to the point that I will not be double checking my “Prophetic Time Lines” of course, now that you have raised some very good points. And , no to answer the last question, I was talking about my site sonsothunder.wordpress.com
        and the Post would be called “Pre-Wrath Rapture”
        GOD BLESS you ,
        Enjoyed it so far ..
        sonsothunder

        sonsothunder // August 11, 2009 at 10:06 pm

        Once again Lyle I can not get a grasp of the logic you are using. This time it is in your suggested reading of the “Throne Room” in Chapter 5 of Revelation, Where you asked why do we not find Jesus in the Throne Room. However, This is what we find: ( Revelation 5:6-7)
        And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth .5: 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. It appears that Jesus is without a doubt in the Throne room where, by the way Acts 3:21 says that he “Must” be till the time of Restoration of all things”
        Acts 3:21 (King James Version)

        21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

        Acts 3:21 (Amplified Bible)

        21Whom heaven must receive [and retain] until the time for the complete restoration of all that God spoke by the mouth of all His holy prophets for ages past [from the most ancient time in the memory of man].

        Lyle E Cooper // August 12, 2009 at 7:16 am

        Sorry, but I did not make myself clear. Yes, Jesus DID appear suddenly in the throne room. But where was He BEFORE He appeared? THAT is the question to be answered. You see, John shows us the passing of time in this vision – but most read over it and do not see it. I did not see it – even after the Holy Spirit said to me: “It shows timing.” It took me months to see it. (My wife has always said my head is quite hard!!) But, thank God, I finally did see it. When John first looked into the throne room, (in the vision) he did not see Jesus. This vision was in 95 AD. Why was Jesus not there? Why was “No man found?” John could not have written that, unless the search he was watching had not ended in failure. So the search DID end, and it ended in failure, and that is why John was weeping. Not a little, but MUCH. Where did it start? The search started in heaven, then moved to the earth, then moved to hell. So the search John was watching ended in failure. So as soon as that search ended, another was started. Another search was started, and before this search left heaven to search the earth, a man was found worthy!!!

        So what is the Holy Spirit wanting to get across to us here? One, the passing of time. I want you to find this, not just me tell you – so I deleted points two and three.

        So my questions remain, in the FIRST part of the vision, why was Jesus not there? Why did the search end in failure?

        Maybe I can reword this: When in time could this vision have been (the actual scenes in the vision – not when John saw the vision), and the throne room appear as it did to John? (A vision can be about things in the past, present or future.)

        Lyle

    • sonsothunder February 15, 2012 at 5:23 am #

      If you are proposing that the Old Testament is not a foreshadowing of Christ, and God’s ultimate plan of salvation, Lyle…I have to say, you shouldn’t be quite so adamant, and forceful with your words toward Jon,or any others…as if you find a separate message of salvation from the Old Testament, and the New…maybe it is you who are missing something. I’m not saying you are…just, not sure what you mean by we have to take the message of our salvation from Paul’s writings,or the New Testament alone.

  3. Booksphotographsandartwork February 10, 2012 at 2:33 am #

    I may have commented on this elsewhere on you blog, man it sthing huge! but I have to just say Amen!!! Although the idea of being raptured out before hand sounds great I don’t believe it too be so either. I have taken a lot, ok not a lot, of flack for it by some. People really dig their heels in over this point. One of my good friends just said in front of me the other day to someone else that I had learned that craizness from a nutcase teacher. I just let it go. I have done what I can. It does help to know that other people few as they seem to be know of this and teach it. Like my bible study teacher who taught me this says if they get this part of the teachings wrong then what else are they teaching wrong, a lot.

    • sonsothunder February 10, 2012 at 2:43 am #

      Well, it’s actually not so cut and dry that we can say one way or the other…I mean, I can see as many chapters, verses, and concepts pro, as I can con.. the thing is …it’s not Salvation Conditional…thank God.. and we are supposed to just be ready…So, guess you could say I’m “Post Trib”…I’m “Post” to be ready…Bless You
      paul

  4. Booksphotographsandartwork February 11, 2012 at 4:20 pm #

    I’m not quite clear on what you mean by it’s not Salvation Conditonal. I know it does not look so cut and dry. It’s rather difficult sort of. I more than made sure of what my Bible study teacher was talking about when he taught about this. We we went back and forth from Old Testament to New over and over. I asked a million questions. I hounded him and didn’t let go until the light bulb went off over my head and I actually said,” I see it”! Anyway it is good to have someone else to discuss this with and an encouargement to read the Bible again. Because we are a forgetful people. I am writing a little piece for my blog also. Much simpler than what you wrote. The message needs to be heard.

    • sonsothunder February 11, 2012 at 10:15 pm #

      All I meant by not “Salvation Conditional” is that whether we believe in the pre,mid, or post trib is not important, but that we be ready. Not that I would want to debate anyone on the blog site of such a paradoxical subject, I still would have to say after many years of studying that very subject, among others, that there are as many scriptures, and verses that seem to say Yes, Pre-Trib, as there are that say…Not so.
      Bless You
      When are you going to fix your Gravatar/link so others can just click it and get to your site?
      If you click my Gravatar you’ll find my Email address. I am more than happy to help if you want.
      paul

  5. zdueck February 17, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    Alright… I’m going to start right off by saying I didn’t manage to read this entire post (due to time constraints perhaps I’ll read it more in depth later), but I can tell you already I disagree with much of what you are saying so far… Though kudos for actually studying this thing enough to know anti-christ does not actually refer to the opposite of christ. You’re on the right track, just haven’t been pushed far enough. Also liked how you prefaced this by saying that you are not an authority and still had much to learn. leads me to believe the words to follow aren’t for not.

    For starters the rapture has always sounded like a conspiracy to me in how they take one passage from here and one passage from there and string them all together (quite sloppily if I may add) in order to make the thing stick together. But when you actually read most of these passages you come to realize that most of them need to be read in a completely different context than the rest to the chapter in order to come to such a conclusion which does not ring true to me.

    Secondly, if you’ll notice through your readings, the term ‘rapture’ appears a sum total of zero times throughout the bible. Not saying that in and of itself denotes the theory, but when you also notice that before about 250 years ago the idea was also never mentioned once, it leads one to wonder why this idea is so popular when those closest to Jesus didn’t even know about it. Want to check this out for yourself look up John Nelson Darby, who is pretty much the father of dispensationalism (the basis of rapture theology)… Look hard enough you’ll probably note that this idea for the rapture came out of one of two dreams Darby had, how biblical does that sound? The more I read about rapture theology the harder it becomes to give it any sort of credibility.

    But of course what kind of person would I be if I didn’t also give a little idea of where I’m coming from. While this sometimes turns more evangelical christians away from my type of though, I am not a biblical literalist. There is too much clearly poetic literature to treat the entire thing at 100% face value truth. Not to say it isn’t all true, but there’s more to it than ‘this word is true, and this word is also true and so when we put them together the sentence they create is also pure truth’. Not how I think.

    So with that premise my reading of revelation leads me to see an incredibly harsh critique directed at the roman empire and a call to action for all those christians living under it’s regime to act through a removal from the system. It is also a vision about what is to come when empire is no more and all that is left is those who truly believe in a better way of living. It’s a great book, just not one that I believe promotes rapture theology.

    Check out this book if you are still actually interested in studying this:
    The Rapture Exposed: The message of Hope in the Book of Revelation, by Barbara Rossing

    • sonsothunder February 17, 2012 at 3:41 am #

      I perceive from your words you rarely ever read an entire article, or document before offering your personal, preconceived synopsis… Perhaps, restudies are of interest?
      Either way… God Bless You
      paul

  6. zdueck February 17, 2012 at 8:42 am #

    I’ll admit that when I’ve got a good idea where something is going that I’m more likely to skim than actually read… But I’ll re-read it now that it’s not 15 minutes to bedtime. Although, unless you suddenly come to the realization that rapture theology is nonsense part way through thing, I’m betting my opinions not gonna change.

    • zdueck February 17, 2012 at 9:03 am #

      Yeah, no change. Still don’t think highly on the rapture, pre-trib or not. When you actually hear all these rationale in their entirety instead of the sliver of it you seemed to cover it just seems like too flimsy of an idea to be true… Previous statement remains my opinion.

    • zdueck February 17, 2012 at 11:30 am #

      And by the way, even though I do disagree with your rapture based perspective… I’m still always up for a good conversation and am always pleased to have my mind changed (as rarely as it seems to happen). I’m just going to pre-emptively apologize for all the spelling mistakes/words that just don’t exist right now… sometimes my brain moves faster than my hands, like above where I seem to have neglected to place ‘this’ between ‘through’ and ‘thing’…

      • Lyle E Cooper April 25, 2012 at 10:51 pm #

        I am mystified how ANYONE can read 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and NOT believe in a catching away of the church. A beginning reader could read those two chapters and understand: it is written very simply: Jesus will descend from heaven, the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain, will be “caught up” (rapture) WITH THEM (the dead in Christ who rose first) into the air and into the clouds, and “so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

        If we don’t stop reading, but read chapter 5, we see that just three verses after this classical rapture verse, Paul mentions the “day of the Lord.” If we keep reading, Paul makes a perfect paradigm: describing TWO different groups of people, and the OUTCOME of each group, at the rapture.

        First he tells us that those living in darkness with get the “sudden destruction.” But those living in light (born again) will get “salvation” and get to “live together with Him.” This is saying the same thing as “so shall we ever be with the Lord.” In other words, Paul is STILL speaking about the rapture event: he did not change subjects. Paul is giving us the timing of the rapture: it will come JUST BEFORE the start of the Day of the Lord.

        Does not Paul tell us the very same thing in 2 thes. 2? He tells us in verses 6,7,& 8, that there is something or someone restraining or holding back the revealing of the man of sin, but once this restainer is “taken out of the way,” THEN the man of sin will be revealed.
        If we read verse 3B, we see that the man of sin IS (or has been) revealed. Therefore, from verses 6-8, we KNOW that the restrainer has been “taken out of the way” in verse 3A. We know this from verses 6-8 that tell us the man of sin can ONLY be revealed when the restrainer is removed or taken out of the way. Therefore, without ever researching the Greek word, Apostasia, an astute bible student can know that by this Greek word, Paul is telling us that something or someone is DEPARTED or removed or taken out of the way.

        So Paul is certainly in agreement with his first letter: the departure comes first, before the day of the Lord. Paul’s argument was that when people SEE the man of sin revealed, then they can KNOW with absolute certainty that they are IN the day of the Lord.

        This also agrees completely with John in Revelation. The “sudden destruction” of Paul is the great worldwide earthquake at the 6th seal. It is caused by the dead in Christ rising. John then saw the raptured church around the throne room in heaven in chapter 7.

        lyle
        lyle period cooper7 at cox period net

        • zdueck May 1, 2012 at 10:59 am #

          The thing is though, your interpretation there does not agree completely with John in revelation. In John’s revelation The kingdom descends from heaven onto earth which becomes the new Jerusalem… There is no ascending into the clouds for us in revelation as far as I can tell.

          • lylecooper May 1, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

            John was in heaven, and saw things in heaven (in vision form) and so did not see all that will take place on earth at that point in time. For example, at the exact midpoint of the 70th week, John saw the 7th trumpet sound in heaven, but did not see the abomination take place on earth. Yet, He did see the “woman” fleeing into the wilderness – the exact thing Jesus told those living in Judea to do the moment they see the abomination – for there will be NO TIME to do anything but run. We find the fleeing in 12:6, so we KNOW the abomination had taken place a few seconds earlier.

            My point? There are clues to things that happened, when John really did not mention the exact event. By 12:6 and Matt. 24, we KNOW without any doubt that the abomination took place somewhere in chapter 11. I know it took place at the same moment the 7th trumpet sounded.

            It is the same for the rapture. John did not SEE the rapture, because God chose to show him events in heaven at that time, not events on the earth. The rapture is quite like the abomination; John did not see it, but DID write clues so we know when it happened. If you read carefully in chapter 7, John saw a HUGE crowd around the throne room in heaven, too large to number. So just as the abomination, John did not SEE the rapture, but saw the effects of the rapture. If you understand John’s chronology, chapter 7 comes BEFORE John and God officially open the 70th week.

            So the truth is, John and Paul are in COMPLETE agreement. Both Paul and John show that the rapture will come JUST BEFORE the start of the Day of the Lord and the 70th week. (They begin at the same time, with the 7th seal.

            Lyle
            lyle period cooper7 at cox period net

            • lylecooper May 1, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

              zdueck, one more comment: where in Revelation do we read about the New Jerusalem coming down? It is at the very end of the book! It is LONG after the 70th week has finished. The Bride will undoubtedly be IN that city as it comes down!

              Lyle
              lyle period cooper7 at cox period net

              • zdueck May 2, 2012 at 10:57 am #

                Where does it say any of that? 70th week? Where is that coming from? Since when is John’s Apocalypse being experience from heaven? He witnesses heaven, but no-where, to my knowledge does it make the claim he is in heaven during this vision (and even his witness of heaven is merely implied, I’m not even certain it actually mentions that very directly). The bible is not some giant game of connect the dots. Every books was written with a very specific intent in mind, and that intent has never been “I’m gonna say this now, and it’s not going to make a lick of sense for another 500+ years when someone finally writes that book with the next dot in it to finally finish off the puzzle.” The biblical authors have never written like that.

                It baffles you that I can read Thes. 4&5 and not see the rapture? It baffles me that anyone can believe in a 200 year old dogma for a religion 2000+ years old. As if those closest to Jesus were in the dark and only quite recently we figured it out when some guy had a nightmare that he thought was a vision.

                • lylecooper May 2, 2012 at 8:41 pm #

                  zdueck,

                  Did you not read in Rev. chapter 4, where God said to John, “come up here?” If God called John up to heaven, we can be sure, that is exactly where John went. But WHERE in heaven? John wrote, “behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.” John was called up to the throne room of heaven. Where does “70th week” come from? Did you not read in Daniel chapter 9? “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city…” So seventy weeks (now we know it is 70 weeks of years) were to come in Israel’s future, and John gave the starting point. But He went on: “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks…” Let’s add: 7 plus 62 = 69. So now we have the first 69 of the 70 weeks determined. He goes on: “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary…”

                  AFter the first 69 weeks, the Messiah would be “cut off.” Sir Robert Anderson, from Scotland Yard, was the first man I know of to understand this: He calculated it to the exact day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, and presented Himself as the Passover Lamb. This is an INCREDIBLE prophecy, accurate to the very day, 173,880 days into the future. But within days of Jesus entering Jerusalem, He was cut off from among the living: put to death on a cross. But, Daniel did not stop there: “and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” WHO was the prince to come? It was Titus. Who was the “people” of the prince to come? The Roman army under Titus. They destroyed the city, and tore down the temple, so that not one stone was left upon another, looking for gold. This happened about 70 AD.

                  So where is the 70th week? Daniel has not yet come to it: notice how Daniel kept the 70th week separated from the first 69? Why did He do that? Here is his final week: “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate…”

                  This “one week” is the 70th or last and final week of the “:70 weeks are determined…” Notice that in the “midst” or middle of the week, there would come and event we call the abomination of Desolation. This is what Jesus called it in Matthew 24: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet…” Jesus was quoting from Daniel 9:27.

                  Now, if you take a week of years, or 7 years and divide them exactly into two halves, how long is each half? 7 years of 12 months in each year, gives us 7 * 12 or 84 months divided by 2 = 42 months. Or, we could just say 3 1/2 years. Did Daniel mention a period of 3 1/2 years? Yes, twice: Dan 7:

                  “25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. ”

                  This is speaking of John’s “Antichrist,” and Paul’s “Man of sin.” Daniel tells us that He will be given authority over the saints for 3 1/2 years. If you remember, John said the same thing: Rev 13:5

                  “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months…”

                  Notice Daniel wrote “he shall speak great words against” God, and John wrote “a mouth speaking great things.” Make no mistake, these are both speaking of the very same thing. Here is Daniel’s second mention of the 3 1/2 years: Dan 12:6

                  “…How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

                  7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half…”

                  If you read the entire 12th chapter, you will find that it begins at the midpoint of the 70th week, at the time of the abomination, when days of great tribulation begin, exactly the way Jesus put it too, beginning immediately after the abomination of desolation. So Daniel tells us it will be 3 1/2 years from the midpoint to the end.

                  John tells us this FIVE (5) different times: Rev:

                  11:2 the temple will be trampled for 42 months.
                  11:3 the two witnesses will testify for 1260 days. (Exact to the very day.)
                  12:6: those living in Judea (the woman) will flee for 1260 days.
                  12:14 Those that fled in 12:6 will be fed and protected for 3 1/2 years.
                  13:5 The Beast will get 42 months of authority.

                  So make no mistake: there WILL BE a period of 7 years in our future, a time Daniel called the 70th week. John is at or near the midpoint of this week in chapters 11-13. John begins this week with the 7th seal, and ends the week with the 7th vial. The exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

                  Therefore, I disagree with you. Daniel’s 70th week was written perhaps 550 years before Christ, and now it has been almost another 2000 years, and the week is STILL in our future. However, I believe it is coming very soon now. If you read the vision in Daniel two, when Daniel describes the great image in the dream, that vision or dream takes the world right up to the time Christ sets up His earthly kingdom. Again, that time is future to us, but not very far off now. Again in Chapter 7 Daniel takes the world right up to the Kingdom of God on earth. In Revelation, John covers the entire 70th week from the 7th seal to the 7th vial. And finally in chapter 19, Jesus returns to fight the battle of Armageddon and finally to set up His earthly kingdom. Matthew 25 tells us there will be as judgment of the nations before anyone is allowed into that Kingdom.

                  Therefore, all of this comes from a correct understanding of both Daniel and Revelation. Daniel got a telescopic view, while John got a microscopic view.

                  If Daniel could write a prophecy covering 173,880 days, and it come out exactly to the day, (and he did!) I think we need to believe that all the rest of Daniel that is still future will most certainly come to pass. I can say the same for the book of Revelation. God said that we could prove Him because He would tell the end of a thing from the beginning. If you cannot believe Revelation now, just hang on for another two or three years, and you will begin to see the trumpet judgments come to pass. These things are going to happen as surely as day follows night and night follows day.

                  Lyle

                  • lylecooper May 2, 2012 at 8:46 pm #

                    Sorry, it was Daniel that gave the starting point, not John! It would start with the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem, including the walls. Sir Robert Anderson found that the commandment mentioned was given in 445 BC. (look up 173,880 in a google search. You will find several different ideas of a starting point; I found the 445 starting point written in Encyclopedia Britannica years ago. Lyle

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